Here are some excerpts from Pastor Caleb's sermon on Homosexuality this morning. I found some of the information helpful.
Also found his take on CCM/NECF responses thought-provoking after our PM Pak Lah has said that the Government does not condone same sex marriages but added that transsexuals should be treated humanely and with respect here:
Hermaphrodite : a person having both male and female reproductive organs. True hermaphrodite is extremely rare with only 350-450 known cases. The more common cases are what is known as pseudo.
In the case of female pseudo, there is an overproduction of testosterone - a hormone imbalanced that caused some “masculinezed” features in the female. However, there is no real gender confusion; the female’s chromosome is still XX and male is XY. It seems that even with ambiguous genitalia, these kids “know” if they are intrinsically male or female. In all cases, any slight mutation that may accompany is treated early by corrective surgery. The same situation may occur in baby boys with the same treatment...
Also found his take on CCM/NECF responses thought-provoking after our PM Pak Lah has said that the Government does not condone same sex marriages but added that transsexuals should be treated humanely and with respect here:
National Evangelical Christian Fellowship secretary-general Rev Dr Wong Kim Kong said it does not approve marriages of the same sex even after one partner has changed his or her sex.
“It’s clearly stated in the Bible. There is no such thing as creation of half-half. Therefore, biologically and genetically, there is only male and female,” he told Bernama.
“Therefore, there is no chance it (the marriage) will be condoned by the Christian church. As a religious group, we have to follow the religion based on the Bible.”
Council of Churches of Malaysia secretary-general Dr Herman Shastri said that churches do not encourage the practice of sex change. (churches had their own approach in recognizing such marriages.) “If a person comes to the church claiming that he or she has had a sex change, we do not discriminate against the person or cast the person out. “We help the person by understanding his predicament through counseling, seeking the views of the parents and doctors on why the sex change was carried out,” he said in a statement. He said the CCM would help the person find happiness through faith in God and acceptance in the Church.
I commend NECF for making a Biblical and clear stand on this issue. But I am utterly disappointed with CCM’s compromised stance of not encouraging, which implies that the churches can accept.
Let us have some clear thinking here. While we do not discriminate a person who has gone through sex changed, we could not recognize his/her marriage, not just because it is against the government law, but it is against God’s law. We also need to help the person understand that he or she has taken the wrong path.
But he/she could ask God for forgiveness and healing psychologically but live with the defect and deficiency for the rest of his/her life by God’s grace. But for those who have not gone for sex change, we will tell them sex change is the wrong method to solve the problem. We will persuade the person to seek spiritual and psychological help rather than surgical help.
Malaysian law. Cf. The Star Nov 24.
1982 fatwa outlaws sex change for Muslims (The Star Nov 24 2005)
PUTRAJAYA: Gender change through surgery is not be allowed in Islam. The National Fatwa Council issued a decree prohibiting such changes in 1982, Minister in the Prime Minister’s Department Datuk Dr Abdullah Md Zin said.
However, he said, in the case of hermaphrodites, the council had agreed that exceptions could be made; but only on the condition that the person concerned took the gender associated with the more dominant sexual characteristics.
He said the Cabinet, which discussed the issue yesterday, wanted an announcement to be made on the matter to avoid confusion.
The council's decision on sex change was also accepted by non-Muslims, he said.
Abdullah also clarified that the council, in its 67th meeting on Feb 22, had decided that the given gender of a hermaphrodite could be changed in the MyKad once surgery was performed.
He said Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi had also expressed concern over the issue, and stressed that the Government did not recognise gender change or same sex marriages. – Bernama
Comments
Questions, questions, will a forum answer them. I think we can seek not to answer all the questions in the forum (like I don’t think we will ever know what type of case Jessie is) but to ask the right questions! And also to be sure of things the Bible is clear of, like God’s design, and man’s sinfulness.
LAW - what we need to do, obligations commands, recognition of sin, trouble, judgement, etc.
"it does not approve marriages of the same sex even after one partner has changed his or her sex."
“It’s clearly stated in the Bible. There is no such thing as creation of half-half. Therefore, biologically and genetically, there is only male and female,” he told Bernama."
“Therefore, there is no chance it (the marriage) will be condoned by the Christian church. As a religious group, we have to follow the religion based on the Bible.”
"churches do not encourage the practice of sex change. (churches had their own approach in recognizing such marriages.) "
"we could not recognize his/her marriage, not just because it is against the government law, but it is against God’s law. We also need to help the person understand that he or she has taken the wrong path."
"live with the defect and deficiency for the rest of his/her life..."
"The reality is that transsexuals here are deeply-marginalised, no thanks to society’s deep-rooted notions of what constitutes male and female."
"Taunted and humiliated all their lives and, in many cases, turned down by prospective employers for being "different", the isolation eventually pushes many into vice."
"the Government does not condone same sex marriages"
" "Transsexualism must be treated as a disease," says its president Datuk Dr Teoh Siang Chin. He proposes that a multi-disciplinary team comprising psychiatrists, surgeons, obstetricians and gynaecologists, urologists and endocrinologists examine transsexuals before they go for sex change procedures."
GOSPEL - what is God doing, Grace, forgiveness, empowerment, redemption, etc
“If a person comes to the church claiming that he or she has had a sex change, we do not discriminate against the person or cast the person out. “We help the person by understanding his predicament through counseling, seeking the views of the parents and doctors on why the sex change was carried out,”
"the CCM would help the person find happiness through faith in God and acceptance in the Church. "
" we do not discriminate a person who has gone through sex changed,"
"ask God for forgiveness and healing"
""The public and the media focused on Jessie’s wedding but in fact, there are bigger issues affecting this group of people like equal treatment, social ills, job opportunities and educating the public. Marriage is only one small part."
"transsexuals should be treated humanely and with respect."
"when dealing with transsexuals, the authorities should err on the side of kindness."
"more "consultation" needs to take place."
On "clear thinking" .. perhaps just because we might not agree with one's statement doesn't mean the one making it doesn't have clear thinking?
I agree with Jacksons here that "IMHO I am not fully sure if NECF’s stand was the biblical one (is there really one on transexuality, or is this an ambiguous issue that needs a more complex approach? A medical case may be made for the half-half perhaps?) and if CCM really did compromise."
Because I personally read CCM's statement as merely stating the reality of different churches approaching this particular issue differently (at least from a global point of view, thus is was not a compromise though it may be perceived as one depending on personal convictions on the matter), plus this keeps the door open rather than closed to discussion.
I can "guess" why some people prefer not to bring in the political and religious dimensions and limit it to legal and medical opinion, perhaps religon and politics has been abused too much until it seems to many they have lost it's "authority" in these matters. And that becomes a challenge for us who believe that (1) We can't ignore the religious and political dimensions because that would be naive. (2) We believe a theological-biblical perspective informs all aspects of our lives.
so as an experiment I tried the "law and Gospel" theological lens for the statements and say .. while making a seemingly "hardline" (in the eyes of more liberal minded people) stand on a case like sex change how does one allow the Gospel to be heard more than just the law?
That said, this seems not to be the case in Jessie/Jeffrey Chung's.
I agree with the need for 'grace AND truth' or 'law AND gospel' in our stance here.
How do we balance these two?
And as a rule of thumb, I think that if the issue is more public and involve the welfare of others or wider society, the need for truth/law is accentuated.
And if the issue is more personal and involve relationship at a more inter-individual level, the need for grace/gospel is emphasized.
As I discussed earlier abt the million-dollar transgender wedding which sparked a national debate, with journalists in tow, I think the slant is more 'public' than 'personal' here.
CCM statement is appropriate when addressing Jessie Chung as a person or an individual, as well as other individuals who struggle with gender identity. We could start here, so as not to 'distance' them frm the Church.
But we can't stop there. We need to have moral clarity publicly that the churches represented in these two bodies do not approve or condone these 'trends'.
Here, NECF statement seems more appropriate though we may wish that the wording is more nuanced. (ie wat on earth is 'half-half'?)
'Clear thinking' implies that we should not confuse the morality of an action with our love/respect/willingness to help the people who choose to do it.
I think there are possible options/multiplicity within these two parameters.
http://thinkchrist.blogspot.com/2005/11/is-transsexuality-justified.html
Bingo! You hit the nail on the head!
"And as a rule of thumb, I think that if the issue is more public and involve the welfare of others or wider society, the need for truth/law is accentuated.
And if the issue is more personal and involve relationship at a more inter-individual level, the need for grace/gospel is emphasized."
But having said that, I still think that "half-half" statement was just a bad way to put it, as it seemed to make an absolute statement about all the possibilities, not Jessie.
Tat's the best post by a teenager on the topic i've seen :)
Just some 2 ruppees to sharpen each other... i'm not sure if we should 'attack' the researchers' country of origin (holland) instead of the methodology of their research...
Even biased people cud speak truth sometimes.
i.e. I'd question the sample size, I'd question if it's based on averages rather than actual size (in which case the organ cud be bigger or smaller in TS males)...
Most of all, I'd question the correlation even if there's a biological factor involved.
Is the organ size a cause or effect of TS behaviour?
Some research found that taxi drivers in london have a bigger size in a region of their brains...
does tat prove that this caused them to be taxi drivers or is that an effect of their professional need for greater 'coordination skills'?
Finally, morality often calls us to choose contrary to wat we 'naturally' want ie lust or anger.
within the Triune Being of God - I Cor.11:3. The headship of God over Christ
is reflected in the headship of man over woman. Also, The Oneness of God -
Father and Son through the Spirit is to be reflected in the oneness of the
body of Christ through the same Spirit - John 17:22. And at creation, God
says, "Let Us make man (sing.)......... and let them (plural)....." Bad
grammar in the Bble often means good theology! And he goes on the make the
man and the woman (Gen. 1:26,27) woman therefore is an after-act of God and
not an after-thought! And in Gen. 2:24, we read that the man and the woman
would be 'one flesh' through their sexual union reflecting the reality of
the Father and Son constituted One God through the Spirit. A monogamous,
heterosexual marriage therefore looks retruospectively at the Trinity and
prospectively at the marriage between Christ and the Church (Eph.5:31,32)!
Mystery indeed! I am not surprised that the Song of Songs is a central book
in the Bible without which God's revelation would not be complete.
I think we need to build our theology of sexuality on some robust theology.
We have probably made ourselves obnoxious to that section of the gay
community that is open to the Christian faith because our theology of
sexuality has remained at the punishment levels of Genesis 19 and Romans 1.
LT.