It still puzzles me too that Emergent and Agora are mentioned in the same sentence.
Because I felt 'it's no contest' since the former is an imported brand while the latter is 'local brand' (Greek word notwithstanding). But it seems that the feeling is mutual because Agora is perceived to be more 'organized and established'.
Actually, like EMO, we are also still at early 'experiment' stage and tweaking around for more clarity about why we exist.
In terms of 'theological prowess', most 'founding members' of Emergent have earned a degree/masters in theology/philosophy. Prior to post-mooncake meeting, I haven't heard so many French names (Lyotard, Lachan, Derrida, Foucault, Girard - siapa tu?) being dropped in rapid succession before!
You sure need to be quite 'intellectual' to pull a feat like that...
In contrast, Agora 'laypersons' are still trying squeeze out 2 hours from office or class to do part-time studies. If we have not been as nuanced as Alwyn like us to be, maybe it's because we are 'newbies' in the territory.
So it surprises me that Sivin felt "inferior" when reading some Agora members' blogs. But I can see we could be over-zealous sometimes, hehehe...
Those who have come and join our discussions will know our bias is towards using simple, understandable language. Echoing C.S. Lewis,
Our main intended audience is the 'woman/man in the pew or street'.
We want to bridge the gap between Sunday school and Seminary.
We're not so much interested to spoonfeed people with 'fatwas', as to create awareness about issues and some thinking tools from biblical perspective(s).
To give thinking Christians a handle or primer on issues so that they can explore deeper on their own, if they want to. It's gratifying to see people are so hungry if you just put the cookies on a lower shelf where they can reach it.
We also hope people will find 'take-home' value, something practical that folks can use right away in their office or classroom.
Usually I'd like to play the devil's advocate to keep the discussion open-ended while the pastors (ya, they are welcome too) would do their best to bring some 'closure'.
It's a nice 'balance', i think.
As you may know, the Agora started as an informal network of friends with broadly-shared evangelical convictions, so diversity in perspectives certainly are respected and even celebrated.
We even invite our non-Christian friends to share their views so we could hear and understand them. (interfaith dialogues?)
Having a 'right' perspective is inevitable, so my Calvinism and apologetics will leak out just as Sivin's McLarenism and post-foundationalism leak out... it may not represent the group as a whole.
The important thing, all of us consciously try to avoid 'importing' foreign debates to our shores. I always agree with McLaren's analysis of problems, but not always his prescriptions for cure.
Also I really dun agree with Alwyn's stark contrast of Agora's concerns for "the immorality of trans-sexuality, the conditions which may render it 'acceptable', biblical presciptions" as being less down-to-earth.
In fact, won't such concerns would encourage us to see "what are the issues/options involved in trans-sexuality? How do various cultures view the problem? How can the church respond? What have trans-sexuals shared about how society, the church, etc. have treated them?" (the so-called 'more down to earth' tendencies)
If there is a distinctive, perhaps Agora doesn't feel it is too restrictive for a Christian rethinking exercise to be guided by some non-negotiables like the supreme authority of Scripture, touchstones of orthodoxy like Chalcedon creed etc.
Otherwise, as someone put it, it's just your story and my story. At the end, all we have is thirty equally valid stories in the room.
We do not see ourselves as just a band of alienated malcontents.
So whatever reform or dissatisfaction we have is from within the community. We hope to encourage evangelicals to be true to their heritage in a fresh and contextualised way, rather than calling them to move 'beyond' it.
There is no talk about being 'post-evangelical'. We are grateful for the broad unity in evangelical values in Malaysian churches.
After struggling a bit to decide whether we should be a 'parachurch' group, we find that the need for accountability and 'spiritual covering' would allow us to serve the wider community better. (ya, financial freedom too!)
So 'officially' we are a 'task force' of CDPC, doing what we can to help the evangelical community in Malaysia connect God's word with God's world.
Perhaps, because of the support from leaders like Rev Wong Fong Yang, we sense a closer continuity with the evangelical family.
By working in collaboration and partnership with local churches and ministries, we hope to encourage and empower ordinary people just like us, to make an impact where they live.
'Little platoons' of mercy and justice who make a difference in their circle of influence. Soli Deo Gloria!
Because I felt 'it's no contest' since the former is an imported brand while the latter is 'local brand' (Greek word notwithstanding). But it seems that the feeling is mutual because Agora is perceived to be more 'organized and established'.
Actually, like EMO, we are also still at early 'experiment' stage and tweaking around for more clarity about why we exist.
In terms of 'theological prowess', most 'founding members' of Emergent have earned a degree/masters in theology/philosophy. Prior to post-mooncake meeting, I haven't heard so many French names (Lyotard, Lachan, Derrida, Foucault, Girard - siapa tu?) being dropped in rapid succession before!
You sure need to be quite 'intellectual' to pull a feat like that...
In contrast, Agora 'laypersons' are still trying squeeze out 2 hours from office or class to do part-time studies. If we have not been as nuanced as Alwyn like us to be, maybe it's because we are 'newbies' in the territory.
So it surprises me that Sivin felt "inferior" when reading some Agora members' blogs. But I can see we could be over-zealous sometimes, hehehe...
Those who have come and join our discussions will know our bias is towards using simple, understandable language. Echoing C.S. Lewis,
I have come to the conclusion that if you cannot translate your own thoughts into uneducated language, then your thoughts are confused. Power to translate is the test of having really understood your own meaning.
Our main intended audience is the 'woman/man in the pew or street'.
We want to bridge the gap between Sunday school and Seminary.
We're not so much interested to spoonfeed people with 'fatwas', as to create awareness about issues and some thinking tools from biblical perspective(s).
To give thinking Christians a handle or primer on issues so that they can explore deeper on their own, if they want to. It's gratifying to see people are so hungry if you just put the cookies on a lower shelf where they can reach it.
We also hope people will find 'take-home' value, something practical that folks can use right away in their office or classroom.
Usually I'd like to play the devil's advocate to keep the discussion open-ended while the pastors (ya, they are welcome too) would do their best to bring some 'closure'.
It's a nice 'balance', i think.
As you may know, the Agora started as an informal network of friends with broadly-shared evangelical convictions, so diversity in perspectives certainly are respected and even celebrated.
We even invite our non-Christian friends to share their views so we could hear and understand them. (interfaith dialogues?)
Having a 'right' perspective is inevitable, so my Calvinism and apologetics will leak out just as Sivin's McLarenism and post-foundationalism leak out... it may not represent the group as a whole.
The important thing, all of us consciously try to avoid 'importing' foreign debates to our shores. I always agree with McLaren's analysis of problems, but not always his prescriptions for cure.
Also I really dun agree with Alwyn's stark contrast of Agora's concerns for "the immorality of trans-sexuality, the conditions which may render it 'acceptable', biblical presciptions" as being less down-to-earth.
In fact, won't such concerns would encourage us to see "what are the issues/options involved in trans-sexuality? How do various cultures view the problem? How can the church respond? What have trans-sexuals shared about how society, the church, etc. have treated them?" (the so-called 'more down to earth' tendencies)
If there is a distinctive, perhaps Agora doesn't feel it is too restrictive for a Christian rethinking exercise to be guided by some non-negotiables like the supreme authority of Scripture, touchstones of orthodoxy like Chalcedon creed etc.
Otherwise, as someone put it, it's just your story and my story. At the end, all we have is thirty equally valid stories in the room.
We do not see ourselves as just a band of alienated malcontents.
So whatever reform or dissatisfaction we have is from within the community. We hope to encourage evangelicals to be true to their heritage in a fresh and contextualised way, rather than calling them to move 'beyond' it.
There is no talk about being 'post-evangelical'. We are grateful for the broad unity in evangelical values in Malaysian churches.
After struggling a bit to decide whether we should be a 'parachurch' group, we find that the need for accountability and 'spiritual covering' would allow us to serve the wider community better. (ya, financial freedom too!)
So 'officially' we are a 'task force' of CDPC, doing what we can to help the evangelical community in Malaysia connect God's word with God's world.
Perhaps, because of the support from leaders like Rev Wong Fong Yang, we sense a closer continuity with the evangelical family.
By working in collaboration and partnership with local churches and ministries, we hope to encourage and empower ordinary people just like us, to make an impact where they live.
'Little platoons' of mercy and justice who make a difference in their circle of influence. Soli Deo Gloria!
Comments
I like submergence iii best!
Time: 2 pm
Venue: CDPC
:) Siew paus are optional!