Have you got news from the grapevine that our friends at Emergent got a hearing from the Jedi Council ie NECF research commission?
Thats fantastic! An honest face-to-face dialogue over coffee...
No 'diet of worms' that Luther had to endure, I hope... :)
I'm glad to see the convergence of concerns (hey, I coined the term) about what Alwyn described as
When I saw that, I murmured a hearty Amen...
Yet my heart sank when he later said:
If this isn't enuff, he went on to clarify 'such intellectual forums':
That's not very 'generous', isn't it?
I dunno why Alwyn would make such a statement like that.
Just for the record, Agora, NECF and Kairos are as diverse as the evangelical movement ever is... Our contributors come from diverse backgrounds - Baptist, Anglican, Brethren, Independent, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Pentecostals etc, respecting 'multiplicity of views'.
We dun contend for 'one true' monolithic Christian perspective...
But we certainly believe that in our diversity we affirm "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace that there is one body and one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
I think the Agora blog and The Confessions, at least, have been very inclusive and more than eager to promote events from the wider Christian community in Msia like...
Klang Valley Bible Conference, Kairos lectures, Grace@work, iBridge, Graduate Christian fellowship, OHMSI, SUFES, Evangel, Malaysian Care, Shuang Fu, Gospel Culture center, Ravi Zacharias Ministry, Footstool Players, Living Room, MBS, CBTE, MBTS, Beautiful Gate, Asian Beacon, ICI etc... etc...
Do we see the same level of hearty 'inclusivity' in any of the EM blogs?
We have also happily attended, brought people and dim sum along to Emergent meetings! Not once, not twice... at least thrice... to learn and discuss...
Can someone recall when was the last time anyone from Emergent come and have 'conversation' with the Agorans? :) Or bring 'Char Koay teow'? Siew pau?
Er... "frequent exclusivity"?
If we haven't even been to Agora to have 'conversations', how can we give others bad press like that? That's not accurate lar...
We may be a tad concerned about the orthodoxy part, but can't we at least be assured of 'generosity' here?
Thats fantastic! An honest face-to-face dialogue over coffee...
No 'diet of worms' that Luther had to endure, I hope... :)
I'm glad to see the convergence of concerns (hey, I coined the term) about what Alwyn described as
'one-size-fits-all' solutions to local church issues,
the oppression nurtured (perhaps subtly) by various truth-claims,
the coldness of "non-embodied" spirituality,...
relativism, pluralism, non-foundationalism, a lack of affirmations and so on.
When I saw that, I murmured a hearty Amen...
Yet my heart sank when he later said:
Emergent isn't primarily about contending for a 'one true' Christian theology or perspective. Also, it is not chiefly aimed at resolving issues of theology, apologetics, history and so on. Emergent respects the multiplicity of views and arguments by Christians, and fears that frequent exclusivity demonstrated by many such intellectual forums are of limited value, missionally speaking.
If this isn't enuff, he went on to clarify 'such intellectual forums':
This distinguishes Emergent Malaysia at least from groups like AGORA, NECF and maybe even Kairos.
That's not very 'generous', isn't it?
I dunno why Alwyn would make such a statement like that.
Just for the record, Agora, NECF and Kairos are as diverse as the evangelical movement ever is... Our contributors come from diverse backgrounds - Baptist, Anglican, Brethren, Independent, Presbyterian, Charismatic, Pentecostals etc, respecting 'multiplicity of views'.
We dun contend for 'one true' monolithic Christian perspective...
But we certainly believe that in our diversity we affirm "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace that there is one body and one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."
I think the Agora blog and The Confessions, at least, have been very inclusive and more than eager to promote events from the wider Christian community in Msia like...
Klang Valley Bible Conference, Kairos lectures, Grace@work, iBridge, Graduate Christian fellowship, OHMSI, SUFES, Evangel, Malaysian Care, Shuang Fu, Gospel Culture center, Ravi Zacharias Ministry, Footstool Players, Living Room, MBS, CBTE, MBTS, Beautiful Gate, Asian Beacon, ICI etc... etc...
Do we see the same level of hearty 'inclusivity' in any of the EM blogs?
We have also happily attended, brought people and dim sum along to Emergent meetings! Not once, not twice... at least thrice... to learn and discuss...
Can someone recall when was the last time anyone from Emergent come and have 'conversation' with the Agorans? :) Or bring 'Char Koay teow'? Siew pau?
Er... "frequent exclusivity"?
If we haven't even been to Agora to have 'conversations', how can we give others bad press like that? That's not accurate lar...
We may be a tad concerned about the orthodoxy part, but can't we at least be assured of 'generosity' here?
Comments
I'll let Alwyn respond to you :-)
as for me, I've procrastinated posting my take on the meeting. Another multiple view :-P
I'll jump in a little ... putting Alwyn's reflections in context a little before the "made your heart sank" paragraph: "Personally, I feel that the distinctives are better felt than explained. And whilst I'd have liked to say that Emergent employs global methods of thinking and discussion to address local church issues with the aim of perhaps producing 'glocal' solutions or ideas, perhaps the following is more helpful:"
1. It's a personal reflection
2. There's an intuitive dimension here where preliminary before his paragraph is important where he says "I feel that the distinctives are better felt than explained."
Now some context:
One key question was asked to us was how is "emergent" unique or different from other groups?
And another question revolved around what distinguishes at least emergent malaysia as an informal network from others?
so I said, "well the people in the group would display it's uniqueness?" and there were smiles.
But when pressed further, I quoted what drew me to emergent conversations in the first place. "A Generative friendship of missional Christian leaders"
but all those are more "official like" answers or a feeble attempt to describe a kind of belonging because we see each other on the journey.
perhaps that's why I don't mind the "running joke" on ourselves we have not emerged :-)
I think it's hard to "distinguish" in clear lines with AGORA for example on our concerns. Let me go on the record and say first, I admire the theological and apologetic energy bubbling at Agora and I admire the organization too and focus.
But I think there's an obvious preference for REFORMED theology amongst its members let's say compared to some of us in emergent malaysia - personally, I can't help but leak out my preference for Lutheran resources during the NECF talk and was asked to read Calvin as well *grin* but that's a different matter. I'm not saying this is the "main agenda" of Agora .. but that's "felt" in the underlying presuppositions of your writings for example. Hope that's fair.
secondly, there's an obvious focus on "apologetics" which is not found in our "conversations" thus far maybe here and there. that is a "passion" I see in you and a coupld of Agora members. It leaks out.
So, perhaps for me ... Emergent Malaysia which kind of fumbled into being (for which i'm largely responsible I admit) is still getting ourselves organized :-)
we've manage to share some of the learnings we're having, and for me there's also a dimension of modeling the "dance of orthodoxy, orthopathy and orthopraxis" I talk about a lot.
I think there's quite an interesting diversity as far as intellectual engagement is concerned in our setting (and we are wrestling with that and how to move forward) . Honestly, I find myself far feeling at times inferior when it comes to reading the "paragraphs" on Agora members blogs :-)
I think one thing I do appreciate is for me as a pastor, there are a couple of pastors joining us and there's an interesting dynamic of lay reflective leaders or fellow pilgrims and those serving fulltime as senior pastors. Personally, I think that's an added value here. There's a level ground in some ways.
one more thing of course, is more of my personal interactions with those in the "emergent conversations" through blogs and personal emails on a more Global scale (more USA and UK at this stage) which depending on time ... allows me to voice my reflections and learn in a way and speed that was previously less possible before the dawn of the internet age.
But there;s so much more to do .. nothing fancy. Time is a factor. We have multiple responsibilities ... and we're seeking to live and do all we can with the limited resources we're entrusted with.
tell you more when we meet face to face .. (I think there's a glitch in the matrix hopefully you wont be spammed by the same comments *grin*)
Would throw in my 2 rupees later
Someone commented that Emergent (US?) is often 'sensitive' to criticism from 'outside'...
"Unless you come and talk to us face-to-face personally, u dun really understand us... and u have no right to criticise us until u do. That's what Jesus wud do."
In similar token, perhaps what I'm trying to say here is,
"Guys, feelings aside, you dun really know for sure whether Agora is a 'reformed' groupie or whether there are full-time pastoral perspective or whether we major in apologetics since you never come sit down and eat char koay teow with us mar..." :)
Siew pau also can, hehehe...
The phrase 'frequent exclusivity' suggests NOT participational or denominational exclusivity but perspectival and theological exclusivity. Positions, not people, are the point.
(And at the risk of being charged with not taking the trouble to buy some siew pau to mouth-water the previous AGORA gatherings, *smile*, let me try to probe Emergent and AGORA's differences further...)
AGORA, let's agree, is more inclined towards universal timeless Christian answers to today's questions (nothing 'bad' about this! in fact I'd gladly refer certain seekers to AGORA for various issues and these same people to Emergent for others!).
Emergent, as I understand it, seeks more to raise and "think through" questions/issues in today's churches and would be more eager to entertain a multiplicity of solutions.
I believe AGORA focuses on more 'chunk up' issues (e.g. is trans-sexuality RIGHT or WRONG? what conditions may render it 'acceptable'? What Biblical presciptions are there? What view, model or 'ism' of ethics are we dealing with here?). Emergent is more down-to-earth (e.g. what are the ISSUES involved in trans-sexuality? what are the OPTIONS? How do various cultures view the problem? How can the church respond? What have trans-sexuals shared about how society, the church, etc. have treated them?)
Taking this example of trans-sexuals, AGORA's set of questions, by their very nature, demand a very de-limited range of answers (i.e. t-sexuality cannot be BOTH right AND wrong), whereas Emergent seeks to encourage divergent ways of, say, 'dealing with' trans-sexuals (something best encouraged by generating MORE answers, ideas, etc.)
Again, I'm sure there are overlaps. I'm sure AGORA is not entirely 'theoretical/foundational'and I know Emergent folk do enjoy some good philosophical sparring on occasion. But as a general point of distinction between the two groups, I think I'm more or less on track.
Both approaches do not exhaust what God has in mind for growing His kingdom, but - also to explain my angst-generating comment further - I would think that Emergent's way of doing things is more missionally-oriented, if for NO OTHER REASON than that Emergent seems to use that word more often than other groups(!). (E.g. Google the word 'missional' in the AGORA blog and compare the results with that appearing if you do the same in Sivin's blog...)
We could take up lots of web-spare debating about what it means to be missional but I think the sheer intensity of preoccupation Emergent ppl have with this motif makes it fair to say that Emergent are more focused on "being missional" than AGORA.
Still, in hindsight I wasn't convinced that Dr. Ng's question, "What is so distinctive about Emergent?" was the most useful thing to ask. Differences take time to delineate and opinions vary on the significance of each difference, sigh.
Better, IMO, to ask, "How can Emergent/AGORA help the kingdom?" which answers the question of distinctives, too. Indeed, as Dr.Ng mentioned at the end of the NECF meeting, "Emergent and AGORA need each other" - I hope David can join me in saying, to this remark, a hearty Amen! :)
Note: I've added one word to my initial post, between 'frequent' and 'exclusivity'. I hope this clears the air (and heat) somewhat.
Apologies accepted, bro. No hard feelings at all.
Derrick's wedding is around the corner so we get to catch up soon.
We certainly need each other a whole lot more than we imagine :)
Thanks for the wonderful comments (though largely inaccurate and makes too much effort to set apart what should be joined together).
I know that clarity is not a big thing for some of us, but I do agree that the courtesy of *asking each other* if our fuzzy 'feelings' are really accurate before posting publicly would help a lot...
:) I do enjoy our 'private chats' in the past and will say more abt our distinctives/convergences later
(anti-climatic, huh?)
But bro, if you really believe that Agora or Kairos or NECF demonstrates "frequent theological exclusivity", then you are more out-of-touch with evangelicals than I thought...
That extra word doesn't help one teeny weeny bit at all.
So if you care to sit down and have char koay teow with us at least once, you'd know that we have diverse theological positions when it comes to a plethora of issues.
Yes, some heresies like "gnosticism" or 'denying Christ's deity' are clearly out-of-bounds but that doesn't make us monolithic. I sure hope even Emergent affirms some non-negotiables like this, right?
Or is that an inappropriate question?
Sherman said it so well, that I'd borrow his words and plagiarise a bit:
For the well-meaning Christians who truly care to speak about Agora or Kairos or whatever, please do buy a bus ticket or drive yourself to pay us a visit.
Take time to listen to our life story, the struggles that we have been through in life, and the struggles that both of us have been through in our relationship. Understand the pain, the brokenness, and the sense of helplessness. First know us as people, as friends - not as the 'exclusive' stepbrother of Emergent - then give us your take on the situation. Know Agora as the other before saying what you think of us. Because that's what Jesus would do.
To the well-meaning Christians who think their personal feeling is all that matters in such matters, you're wrong. Because that is not how God thinks....
To think that we can pass value judgements based on fragmented and 'leaked-out' bits of information is to be unjustifiably naïve. It's always easy to judge, because it makes us feel so right about ourselves.
I am not saying that you are wrong... I'm saying that since we have not afforded the time and the resources to meet the other in person to truly understand the other, why should we cast the first stone?
our discussions in Agora, call it conversations if you like, is not much about high council elders spewing fatwas ex-kathedra than about allowing people with different theological experiences (i dare not say doctrines, as I believe most of us do not differ much there), different life-adventure with the Holy Spirit, different creativity to put our heads and hearts together enriching one another and forming the Acts by which we can live out in continuance the great story of God's work in this world.
Not that this is altogether a good thing, but for the record, I think there is a more variegated concoction of theological ideas and stances than meet the eye in the Agora, come come (bring siew pau!) and let's talk.
gtg CG...later, gator
Jack
http://bohtea.blogspot.com/2005/11/exclusively-so.html
Pls dun take the 'ciplak' comment earlier as merely 'rhetorical', I'm sincerely inviting any folks who would like to form an accurate opinion on Agora to come and visit us...
Er, no 'siew pau' also can...