I really miss having you around for this kind of conversations. And I’m so proud of both of you seriously investing your lives to creation care. Happy for your geek lifestyle too! We need that kind of expertise back home. The lake just opposite CDPC puchong was poisoned recently with dead fish appearing on shore. MPSJ acted on it, hopefully it won’t recur.
Just a bit of background… the bit about a physical resurrection and new heaven and new earth are pretty orthodox stuffs, but I guess modern Christians are deep in dualism (a spiritual heaven vs physicality) that I must admit that it sounded foreign to me too when I heard it only a couple of years ago. So it’s not surprising that many Christians emphasize their duty in evangelism and ‘spiritual’ activities like prayer over ‘earthly’ activities like creation care or work or protesting evil social structures etc.
If ur interested in a geeky critical celebration of Wright’s works, here it is:
http://www.wheaton.edu/wetn/lectures-theology10.htm
Our friend Fanny probably agrees that our labor is not in vain in light of the resurrection but the kind of labor that will last (imperishable), to her, is only labor that is invested in human beings (who will be resurrected) i.e. NOT work related to non-human, physical landscape or political systems. Well, I would agree that no political system is perfect (even a “Christian” one) and everything will go through a fiery purification before the new heaven and new earth emerges (1 Peter). That means everything that is sinful will be removed and transformed so that everything good and acceptable will continue. There is both discontinuity and continuity between the new heaven/earth and the present one. The fear of many evangelical Christians is if we say that a present political system or project today IS the kingdom of God, that’s going back to the old liberal social gospel of 20th century. Wright is cognizant of this risk and therefore refrains from saying that our labor today “builds the kingdom of God” (he calls it the height of folly for it is something only God can do), instead he uses the phrase “build FOR the kingdom”.
But the sharp disjunction between labor for humans and for non-human politics/physical landscape is not that easy to make. Because both have profound impact on human beings – creating a just social system alleviates suffering of real humans just as a clean environment facilitates healthy human flourishing. So one may legitimately connect labour for the betterment of the physical/political realities with labour for human lives. Both have eternal values since both have potential to be acts of kindness to human beings.
Of course, we also need to be careful of proof-texting i.e. where does it say in the Bible about “Trinity”? Well, we can’t find the term “Trinity” in any biblical text but the concept can be clearly inferred from many texts. Similarly, the idea that our work in society has eternal spiritual significance may not be proof-texted but it can be inferred by looking at the sweep of biblical narrative from the Creation mandate in Eden (to have dominion and stewardship over the earth), to the Fall (where the stewardship turned into rebellion in all of life), through redemption (Christ saves our souls as well as our bodies in the resurrection) and ends in the final consummation of a renewed heaven and earth (glorified spiritual-physical human bodies and transformed physical world where God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven). We arrive here not by selective texts here and there, but from the broad sweep of biblical storyline.
On the church as signs of the kingdom, again, we need to see this in light of redemptive history. Jesus inaugurated the kingdom in his coming. It is present today but will reach its fullness in the future. The church is a people called out from the world into the kingdom, a people living under the reign of Jesus. So our lives ought to point to the reality of His rule today and its fullness tomorrow. When people look at our lives, they should see some signs of what the future kingdom looks like ie justice, compassion, mercy etc. In that sense we are ‘signs’ of the kingdom, but not ‘photographs’… in the sense that our lives still carry imperfections that in some ways do not represent what that kingdom is like. So the church today is not the kingdom per se (at least not yet) but in the community, we should see some signs of that kingdom visible.
On Jesus, Paul and their relation to the Roman empire; we do find that they are not like the Zealots who urge a violent uprising to overthrow their rule. (Romans 13 and Luke 3:14). But they are not pro-Rome either like the Sadducees. For example, Jesus’ answer to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s is a double-edged sword that allows taxes to be paid to Caesar (since it is his image that appears on the coin) but the entire human life (created in the image of God) is to be given to God. That translate into something like, “Go ahead pay your taxes but don’t give yourself to him – you belong to God in whose image you are made. Your ultimate allegiance is to God rather than Caesar”. So when the two claims clash, the Christians would rather than die under Roman sword than disobey God. That’s civil disobedience. Later Revelations 17 would describe Rome as an adulterous whore condemned to be overthrown by God, which is kind of a seditious statement to make. And Paul’s declaration that “Jesus is Lord” may sound innocent enough, except that “Caesar is Lord” is the slogan of the emperor’s cult in Rome. By declaring a Jewish king as Lord, such a statement of faith is really subversive to the idolatrous claims to power by the state. So the gospel is about teaching and disciple people to live under God’s reign… but sometimes it entails living in disobedience with evil powers that oppose that rule. I think we are probably saying in different ways the same thing though: “Whether planting roses or standing for justice in the public arena, or changing a baby’s nappy, or walking down the street to the shops, or eating lunch, or doing Bible study, or singing at church, or praying, or preaching a sermon, or listening to that sermon, or doing our budget, or sitting at a desk job. In all these things we can live to God’s glory – we must live for his praise.”
http://theagora.blogspot.com/2007/11/between-romans-13-and-revelation-13.html
Is there a priority of evangelism over social action? If we are pushed against the wall to choose either one, then I’d probably choose evangelism too. But in real life, the church is not required to pick one and neglect the other. Often we need to do both and they are really complementary. Social action flows from the gospel and provides opportunities for it to flourish. Evangelism is broadened and strengthened by social action. Acts 7 speaks of different gifting and calling in the church, there is division of labor… It would be wrong for apostles to neglect their calling to serve tables just as it is wrong for deacons to neglect serving the widows to focus on word ministry. Both are needed in the church and both are doing what they are called to do.
Believers in leadership position in the ‘secular’ world? Joseph… Daniel… David… I dun think the NT has abolished the model set by these saints. Nicodemus is probably a secret follower of Christ in the Sanhedrin council. Lydia is a wealthy businesswoman who sells purple cloth and funded Paul’s mission trips. In more recent times, Wilberforce is an example Christians like to quote.
Again the concept of calling/gifting is relevant here… not all of us are called to be in an upwardly mobile position. Some may be called to the opposite path of faithfulness like John the Baptist or Jeremiah. Our work is not only means to get bread on the table, but also an avenue for service and worship to God. If this is true, then spiritual work cannot be confined to what happens in the church building per se… but the church (people) being sent out in the world, empowered by the Spirit to live out the rule of Jesus.
http://theagora.blogspot.com/2007/04/two-paths-of-obedience.html
Since people have different gifts, we may see the needs of the world differently too. Those who are called to preach and church work see evangelism as being more important. Those who are called to creation care may tend to feel the needs more pressing. It’s perfectly okay because that’s how we are wired. When each is faithful to his or her own calling, the church as a whole, like having different functioning body parts, benefit as a result. Sometimes, to say evangelism is more important than social work, is like the ‘eye’ saying to the ‘foot’: My function is more important. But it is probably more accurate to say that both are needed for the healthy working of a body.
Within the theological framework above, your work and study (done with the proper motive of glorifying God and caring for his creation) have spiritual and eternal value. After all, a clean environment is essential to the thriving of human beings. It need not compete with other duties like parenting or worship but a natural partner alongside them. If human beings are eternally valuable (and they are) then any acts of kindness to them are also eternally significant.
Just as giving a glass of water to a thirsty man is a service to “the present world” that carries spiritual meaning (i.e. Jesus says that that such acts of kindness to his followers is an act of kindness to Him).
We don’t need to think evangelism is more important than parenting. Because we rarely need to choose between them (if ever). We just perform each duty as the opportunity appears at different times… sometimes together! Hehe… I’m not a gardener but I like the idea that in the new heaven and new earth, our skills at rose-planting will still be in demand (only that the roses will smell and look much better, and without thorns!)
Hope that helps!
David
Just a bit of background… the bit about a physical resurrection and new heaven and new earth are pretty orthodox stuffs, but I guess modern Christians are deep in dualism (a spiritual heaven vs physicality) that I must admit that it sounded foreign to me too when I heard it only a couple of years ago. So it’s not surprising that many Christians emphasize their duty in evangelism and ‘spiritual’ activities like prayer over ‘earthly’ activities like creation care or work or protesting evil social structures etc.
If ur interested in a geeky critical celebration of Wright’s works, here it is:
http://www.wheaton.edu/wetn/lectures-theology10.htm
Our friend Fanny probably agrees that our labor is not in vain in light of the resurrection but the kind of labor that will last (imperishable), to her, is only labor that is invested in human beings (who will be resurrected) i.e. NOT work related to non-human, physical landscape or political systems. Well, I would agree that no political system is perfect (even a “Christian” one) and everything will go through a fiery purification before the new heaven and new earth emerges (1 Peter). That means everything that is sinful will be removed and transformed so that everything good and acceptable will continue. There is both discontinuity and continuity between the new heaven/earth and the present one. The fear of many evangelical Christians is if we say that a present political system or project today IS the kingdom of God, that’s going back to the old liberal social gospel of 20th century. Wright is cognizant of this risk and therefore refrains from saying that our labor today “builds the kingdom of God” (he calls it the height of folly for it is something only God can do), instead he uses the phrase “build FOR the kingdom”.
But the sharp disjunction between labor for humans and for non-human politics/physical landscape is not that easy to make. Because both have profound impact on human beings – creating a just social system alleviates suffering of real humans just as a clean environment facilitates healthy human flourishing. So one may legitimately connect labour for the betterment of the physical/political realities with labour for human lives. Both have eternal values since both have potential to be acts of kindness to human beings.
Of course, we also need to be careful of proof-texting i.e. where does it say in the Bible about “Trinity”? Well, we can’t find the term “Trinity” in any biblical text but the concept can be clearly inferred from many texts. Similarly, the idea that our work in society has eternal spiritual significance may not be proof-texted but it can be inferred by looking at the sweep of biblical narrative from the Creation mandate in Eden (to have dominion and stewardship over the earth), to the Fall (where the stewardship turned into rebellion in all of life), through redemption (Christ saves our souls as well as our bodies in the resurrection) and ends in the final consummation of a renewed heaven and earth (glorified spiritual-physical human bodies and transformed physical world where God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven). We arrive here not by selective texts here and there, but from the broad sweep of biblical storyline.
On the church as signs of the kingdom, again, we need to see this in light of redemptive history. Jesus inaugurated the kingdom in his coming. It is present today but will reach its fullness in the future. The church is a people called out from the world into the kingdom, a people living under the reign of Jesus. So our lives ought to point to the reality of His rule today and its fullness tomorrow. When people look at our lives, they should see some signs of what the future kingdom looks like ie justice, compassion, mercy etc. In that sense we are ‘signs’ of the kingdom, but not ‘photographs’… in the sense that our lives still carry imperfections that in some ways do not represent what that kingdom is like. So the church today is not the kingdom per se (at least not yet) but in the community, we should see some signs of that kingdom visible.
On Jesus, Paul and their relation to the Roman empire; we do find that they are not like the Zealots who urge a violent uprising to overthrow their rule. (Romans 13 and Luke 3:14). But they are not pro-Rome either like the Sadducees. For example, Jesus’ answer to give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s is a double-edged sword that allows taxes to be paid to Caesar (since it is his image that appears on the coin) but the entire human life (created in the image of God) is to be given to God. That translate into something like, “Go ahead pay your taxes but don’t give yourself to him – you belong to God in whose image you are made. Your ultimate allegiance is to God rather than Caesar”. So when the two claims clash, the Christians would rather than die under Roman sword than disobey God. That’s civil disobedience. Later Revelations 17 would describe Rome as an adulterous whore condemned to be overthrown by God, which is kind of a seditious statement to make. And Paul’s declaration that “Jesus is Lord” may sound innocent enough, except that “Caesar is Lord” is the slogan of the emperor’s cult in Rome. By declaring a Jewish king as Lord, such a statement of faith is really subversive to the idolatrous claims to power by the state. So the gospel is about teaching and disciple people to live under God’s reign… but sometimes it entails living in disobedience with evil powers that oppose that rule. I think we are probably saying in different ways the same thing though: “Whether planting roses or standing for justice in the public arena, or changing a baby’s nappy, or walking down the street to the shops, or eating lunch, or doing Bible study, or singing at church, or praying, or preaching a sermon, or listening to that sermon, or doing our budget, or sitting at a desk job. In all these things we can live to God’s glory – we must live for his praise.”
http://theagora.blogspot.com/2007/11/between-romans-13-and-revelation-13.html
Is there a priority of evangelism over social action? If we are pushed against the wall to choose either one, then I’d probably choose evangelism too. But in real life, the church is not required to pick one and neglect the other. Often we need to do both and they are really complementary. Social action flows from the gospel and provides opportunities for it to flourish. Evangelism is broadened and strengthened by social action. Acts 7 speaks of different gifting and calling in the church, there is division of labor… It would be wrong for apostles to neglect their calling to serve tables just as it is wrong for deacons to neglect serving the widows to focus on word ministry. Both are needed in the church and both are doing what they are called to do.
Believers in leadership position in the ‘secular’ world? Joseph… Daniel… David… I dun think the NT has abolished the model set by these saints. Nicodemus is probably a secret follower of Christ in the Sanhedrin council. Lydia is a wealthy businesswoman who sells purple cloth and funded Paul’s mission trips. In more recent times, Wilberforce is an example Christians like to quote.
Again the concept of calling/gifting is relevant here… not all of us are called to be in an upwardly mobile position. Some may be called to the opposite path of faithfulness like John the Baptist or Jeremiah. Our work is not only means to get bread on the table, but also an avenue for service and worship to God. If this is true, then spiritual work cannot be confined to what happens in the church building per se… but the church (people) being sent out in the world, empowered by the Spirit to live out the rule of Jesus.
http://theagora.blogspot.com/2007/04/two-paths-of-obedience.html
Since people have different gifts, we may see the needs of the world differently too. Those who are called to preach and church work see evangelism as being more important. Those who are called to creation care may tend to feel the needs more pressing. It’s perfectly okay because that’s how we are wired. When each is faithful to his or her own calling, the church as a whole, like having different functioning body parts, benefit as a result. Sometimes, to say evangelism is more important than social work, is like the ‘eye’ saying to the ‘foot’: My function is more important. But it is probably more accurate to say that both are needed for the healthy working of a body.
Within the theological framework above, your work and study (done with the proper motive of glorifying God and caring for his creation) have spiritual and eternal value. After all, a clean environment is essential to the thriving of human beings. It need not compete with other duties like parenting or worship but a natural partner alongside them. If human beings are eternally valuable (and they are) then any acts of kindness to them are also eternally significant.
Just as giving a glass of water to a thirsty man is a service to “the present world” that carries spiritual meaning (i.e. Jesus says that that such acts of kindness to his followers is an act of kindness to Him).
We don’t need to think evangelism is more important than parenting. Because we rarely need to choose between them (if ever). We just perform each duty as the opportunity appears at different times… sometimes together! Hehe… I’m not a gardener but I like the idea that in the new heaven and new earth, our skills at rose-planting will still be in demand (only that the roses will smell and look much better, and without thorns!)
Hope that helps!
David
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